Raising up Counselors in a Rural Church

Hosts: TJ Freeman and Joe Wagner

Summary: In this episode of Rural Church Renewal, TJ Freeman and Joe discuss the power of equipping church members to care for one another through personal testimony and informal counseling. They explore how sharing grace stories, including struggles and triumphs, can foster a supportive community where members turn to each other for wisdom. The conversation emphasizes the biblical foundation for bearing one another's burdens and the need for pastors to actively disciple and prepare members to provide counsel. The hosts also share practical experiences and strategies for implementing this approach in small, rural churches.

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Transcript

TJ: It's two o'clock on a Friday. Your sermon's not done, but there it is, that knock on your door and somebody's got a problem. They're turning to you as their counselor. Wouldn't it be nice if there were other people in your church who could help carry that load? Well, that's exactly what we're talking about on this episode of Rural Church Renewal. Stay tuned. 

Well, hello, my name is TJ Freeman and I am a rural pastor and I am joined today just by one friend. 

Joe: Hey, my name is Joe. I'm also a rural pastor. 

TJ: We are glad that you're here with us as we think about what it means to lead healthy churches in the middle of nowhere for the glory of God. That's what rural church renewal is all about, so you don't have to be a pastor to keep on listening. I know I use that example in the opening, but if you are interested in how the members of a church can care for one another by providing counsel even on really tough matters, then this episode is going to be helpful for you. 

And we, by the way, call this rural church renewal because we think that church leaders and church members come together to play a part in seeing the church be healthy. And if you are like most churches in the middle of nowhere, you're in need of a little bit of renewal.

One of the ways that you can help. Get to that point is by having your members learn how to counsel one another. Which Joe, you've been thinking about this a lot lately.

Joe: I have been. Just like in the open, when you were talking about the knock on your door, the members in our church just are naturally inclined to come to their pastor for counsel, but what would it be like if.

They were more naturally inclined to go to other members of the church to be discipled and to be counseled. Like that's the, that's the tricky thing. That's the thing too, that you wanna build in and that you wanna work towards. Because like sometimes members in your church, if they're going through a rough, difficult problem, and if it's like of a sensitive nature, they might not want to open up to somebody else in your church.

They would wanna go to the pastor. But I think that we've figured out a way. That's really, really powerful so that you can get the members of your church to actually go to other members of your church for counsel. And wouldn't that take a great weight and load off from you? And wouldn't that also be you as a pastor or a church leader doing what scripture tells us to, to equip the body, to serve and to care for one another?

TJ: The Bible actually does say what you just said, that there are ways that we should be counseling one another. The Proverbs talk about where there's not a multitude of counselors that we end up getting ourselves in trouble. It talks about the idea that if you withdraw and you're alone, that you're actually putting yourself in a dangerous place.

The Bible says that if you isolate yourself, you're seeking your own desire and you're breaking out against all sound judgment. Paul said to the Galatian Church, bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. There's just a lot of evidence if you were to start digging in about the importance of Christians turning to other Christians, and not just their pastor, but other people within the body of Christ for counsel. 

And to your point, Joe, it's not as natural all the time for people to turn there. And also it's not as natural for members of the church to feel like they're equipped to do this. 

Joe: There's that big part of that too. So everybody that looks to the pastor or looks to the elders, but primarily to the pastor. 

TJ: But you kinda stumbled on something that's been really effective.

Can you share that with us a little bit? 

Joe: Yeah. I wish that I had this in mind the entire time and planned it all out, but it's the power of personal testimonies. When you have people in your church giving the testimony of how the Lord has worked in their life and gotten them through some like really serious, difficult problems and other people hear that and they are facing some of those really serious same difficult problems. They're gonna be so much more inclined to want to go talk to that person who's made it through those problems that God has helped. 

Now, we've done that a couple different ways. We actually did that in a Sunday school class. It was probably one of our, our highest attended Sunday school classes on a Sunday morning. We had twice as many people attending this class as we had other classes, it was called Generations. We had a little bit older Saints, but not all of them were 60, 70, or 80. 

TJ: Some of them were your age!

Joe: Yeah. Some of them were younger, and even some of them were younger than me. Mm-hmm. We had some folks in their twenties and thirties, like young parents. And they would come and they would share their testimonies in front of an entire group of people, and they were really super honest about the things that they had walked through too.

TJ: Yeah, there's, let's pause on that for a second. When you say testimony, everyone's gonna have a little bit of a different idea of what that should mean. Oh, sure. So can you just tell us when you say testimony, how are you using that word? 

Joe: I'm not just using that as in like, the testimony of their salvation and the story of how they came to Christ.

I'm talking about their entire life and how God had helped them, supported them, given them wisdom, strength, encouragement throughout their entire life. You know, even before their conversion, how he worked to save them, and then after their conversion, what their life was like with Christ as they walk through those things and how they overcame difficulties and problems. And whether the issues that they had were like preconversion or even after conversion.

Mm-hmm. People resonated so much with us because all of a sudden people realized that we're not playing perfect people here. Yeah. And it was very, very real, and I would say very, very raw, but very, very compelling as well. And so many people were encouraged and all of a sudden you had 10 different, we did it for couples.

We had 10 different couples who had opened themselves up and the entire church had heard their testimonies and were able to go to them to seek counsel and advice. We also did it in small groups and that was even a more intimate situation. 'cause you have between 12 and 15 people, maybe a few more, a few less, but people would spend half an hour to 40 minutes sharing their testimonies.

Everything from drug addiction, abuse. Sexual temptations. Yes. Yeah. Pornography. Mm-hmm. Horrible marriage problems. And they would just open up about those things and how the Lord had helped them through those things, how they might continue to struggle with those sorts of things. And that provides opportunity for people in that small group to go to those folks and say, will you help me through these things?

Will you counsel me? Mm-hmm. Through that as well. 

TJ: Yeah, we did this at a leadership retreat as well. We have elders at our church and at an elder's retreat we had all of the elders just go through and do these testimonies, and I planned that section of our time and I thought, you know, 10, 15 minutes each for these testimonies, it was like an hour. Right. Per person, sometimes even more. 

Joe: And then there was the question and answer part of that too, whether that was at our elders retreat or whether it was at Sunday school. Yes. Or whether it was in the small groups, people like ask questions. What was this like? Right. How did you get through this? And the others answered.

TJ: Yeah. You become an open book, and what I saw happen in several of these formats is one person says something that's really open and transparent and probably embarrassing to say, and then somebody else in their mind is thinking, me too, right? And I'm so glad I'm not alone. And then if they have an opportunity to share, they share that maybe a little bit more.

And pretty soon you realize, man, there's a lot of struggles and challenges. I may have said this on here before, I can't remember, but. In our elders retreat, we found that there were several guys in the room who had contemplated suicide. Mm-hmm. At one point in their life, there were several guys in the room who had doubted their salvation at some point in their life.

You know, there are some common themes of man that you kind of think I'm the only one, and then you see how the Lord has helped somebody else through it, and you maybe even don't say it out loud publicly, but later you circle back around and go talk to that person. So, Joe, what in someone's right mind makes them open up and share these embarrassing things in front of everybody else like this?

Joe: I think that it really comes down to, well it's the power of the Holy Spirit working through them and giving them the courage and the bravery to be able to do that. And then we don't glorify those stories. Like that's not the goal. That's right. Who can tell the worst salvation story? 'cause then some folks would get up and they'd share their testimony and they'd say, oh, mine was boring. Boring.

Yeah. Oh, I wish that mine was boring. Mm-hmm. But I think that that mutual care and love for one another and the building of relationships encourages those. And just a passion and love for Christ and say, look what my Jesus has done for me. Yeah. And look what is available to you so that he can help you through these things as well.

And so like that's kind of the setting. It's not the only way, but I think it's a really powerful way for your members to be able to at least open up the door a little bit to be able to counsel other members in something similar that they've gone through in their entire lives. 

Now, I would share that the Bible tells us that we can be equipped for every good work and purpose through the word of God, and so that you don't necessarily have to have the greatest and longest training to counsel somebody. And we're talking about discipleships here. That's right. 

This is based upon the word of God. This is based upon actually your experiences also and how you have dealt with it. But the word of God is the ultimate authority in those things, and so people are able to counsel others through things that they have experienced.

Mm. And that draws people together. And so if you know people who have experienced those sorts of things, one of the things that you might be able to do, like if you know people's testimonies, you know what they've struggled with, you know what they've been through. You might not have had the time when somebody could be in like a small group and hear those sorts of testimonies or in a Sunday school class, but you could say, Hey.

I know somebody who struggled with something very, very similar to that. Yeah. And you wouldn't believe it's this person, and I know that they would be willing to walk through this with you. 

TJ: For sure. And actually that can be just as powerful and sometimes more powerful than a pastor sitting down with them.

Yep. Because there's not that feeling of, well, you're a professional holy person. So of course you know you're gonna say that, but when somebody who you count very much to be a peer who you feel like, Hey, they're just another member of the church like me, and you start hearing them walk you through their experience and how God's word was sufficient to get them through it.

I think there can be another relational layer there, member to member. That's just really, really healthy. But Joe, should we just wind these people up, turn 'em loose and let 'em go? No. Yeah, not at all. 

Joe: I think one of the things that, that naturally happens is that the counselor will be like, I don't know if I'm ready to do this, but you can encourage them.

That you can help them be ready to do this. Yeah. And you don't just wind 'em up and let 'em go. You really equip them with the resources that they need. You disciple them so that they can disciple the other folks too. So you're still involved in this, especially if it's a pretty raw or green Christian who's counseling somebody else.

It's really, really helpful if you yourself helped them walk through a problem because you can be like, Hey, remember when we talked about this? This is something that you need to talk to them about too. Yeah. And maybe it's giving them a book that they can walk through with their counselee.

Maybe it's giving them a number of different scriptures to remind them and say, Hey, if this comes up, it's here. Or you might use your own interest and discernment. And you might say, I really think that the person that is struggling has got this particular issue. And you can arm them and equip them to drive towards that issue and help resolve that and disciple through it. 

TJ: Yeah, it's good. So you, you're not hands off laissez-faire. Hey. Right. I can keep working on my sermon now that somebody else is handling that issue. It's you're very much involved in spiritually guiding in this case, but you're trusting the Holy Spirit to be the one that does the work.

And you're just a shepherd who is doing your job. You're equipping the saints, right, for the work of ministry. 

Joe: And I would say too, that if, hey, if you're gonna get a member that's counseling another member, check in with both, right? They might be meeting once a week, they might be meeting every other week, but you check in with the counselor at least after each counseling session. And you might want to check in with a counselee once a month or so and just to see, hey, are they getting what the other person's laying down? 

TJ: Hmm. Well, anything else you wanna add before we kinda review? 

Joe: I don't think so, except for to share it has worked. I mean, you and I can both attest to fact that's it has happened in our church.

When I saw it happen for the first time, it blew my mind. Mm. I was like, wow. Yeah. The word of God is powerful. The people of God are equipped with his Holy Spirit and this can work. People can disciple one another. 

TJ: Imagine that. The only thing I would maybe ask you to speak to before we wrap up and review is in a very small church.

Yeah. Where it's one family or two families Yeah. That have dominated for a long time. People are a little more guarded. How would you advise them just to start going in this direction? 

Joe: That's a really good question. I, I think off the top of my head, and I want your opinion of this as well, but building relationships with one another.

Mm-hmm. Those things will naturally start coming out. Building relationships, building trust with one another. Whether it's grabbing coffee, whether it's having one and over over for dinner, whether it's going fishing, whether it's cutting firewood, whether it's going to the grocery store together.

A lot of times you gotta break down some of those walls, especially if there's just two or three families in the church. And it's not like an open war, but the Smiths and the O'Brien's, right? Mm-hmm. It's, I totally made up those names.

TJ: I know. I like that. You didn't go with Hatfield and McCoy.

Joe: Ah, that would've be even better. Would've been too stark. Yeah. But yeah, little by little, building that up because I think ultimately counseling is really intentional discipleship. That's right. So you begin with a discipleship first. 

TJ: Yeah. And maybe even think about, okay, how can I work toward that by preaching some and in my applications, talking about what it means for us to be united and open and kind of preaching through some of those principles that show that we're meant to not isolate, but to open up and to bear one another's burdens.

And then also when you're with members of the congregation, you can model that. Yep. Even as a pastor, you can open up and share and ask for advice and wisdom and be a little disarming in those things. 

Well, what have we covered today? We talked about what it means to give a testimony, not just kind of the classic, like I gave my testimony, this is how I got saved, but an extended version of what we actually refer to as your grace story, the story of God's grace in your life.

And then we talked about how that can often lead to other people going to the person who opened up and saying, yeah, me too. How did you walk through that? And a kind of an organic counseling scenario opens up, but you can also make that a little more formal yourself by putting people together who you know, Hey, this person's struggling with what this person has already shared, they struggled with, and I'm gonna resource them.

So that they can counsel each other well through that. Anything else, Joe? I think you covered it, man. Well then what should they do?

First, they should visit brainerd institute.com for more information. This podcast, rural Church Renewal, is a ministry of the Brainerd Institute. We want to equip the saints. To lead healthy churches and anything we can do to be a resource for the advancement of Christ's kingdom into rural places, we wanna do that.

So head on over to brainerd institute.com for more podcasts and articles and other resources that will equip you. And if you'd like to do a residency in beautiful rural Pennsylvania, we'd love to talk to you about that as well. In addition to that though, they probably have something to lift up. They're Ebenezer.

Yeah, go raise it. Bye-bye.